France was the birthplace of modern democracy, and it may well be the start of its end. After the surprise victory of the left New Popular Front in this year’s elections, President Macron has betrayed democracy in a deal with the right to make Michel Barnier Prime Minister. Axel Persson, General Secretary of France’s CGT Railroad Union, joins The Marc Steiner Show for a post-mortem of the election, its aftermath, and how the deterioration of French politics reflects global trends in the rise of the right and the erosion of democracy.

Studio Production: Cameron Granadino
Post-Production: Alina Nehlich

Transcript

The following is a rushed transcript and may contain errors. A proofread version will be made available as soon as possible.

Marc Steiner:

Welcome to The Marc Steiner Show here on The Real News. I’m Marc Steiner, and it’s great to have you all with us. Once again, welcome to another episode of The Rise of the Right, and we go back to France, and we go back to a conversation with Axel Persson, who was a train driver in France, General Secretary of the CGT Railroad Union, in Trappes, and joins us once again. Axel, good to see you. Welcome.

Axel Persson:

Thank you, great to see you again. Thank you for having me.

Marc Steiner:

It’s always great to talk to you. I was really happy when I heard we were going to do this again. I promise, the next time we’ll do it, I’m going to fly into Paris to do it.

Axel Persson:

Yes, with pleasure.

Marc Steiner:

Let me just begin in a broad question here. What is the political dynamic in France at this moment that is allowing for the rise of the right, and to the leader of the country, Macron, to fall in line with them? What is going on, and what is that dynamic?

Axel Persson:

Well, the current dynamic is, unfortunately, one that is being observed in many industrial countries in Europe, and including in the United States, as has been manifested, for example, by the first presidency of Trump, or his attempt to gain another term for the upcoming elections, which is actually a reflection of the rise and strengthening of the far right in the political landscape, but also within the very deep fabrics of French society. This dynamic, of course, it didn’t start with the last elections. It has been a long-going process for the past 20, 30 years perhaps, in France. One could argue exactly when this dynamic really started.

The rise of the far right in France is the result of growing disgust amongst the general population, and particularly within the working class, of the disgust over the two main political blocs, the traditional left, the traditional right, that has been basically taking turns at managing the system and implementing policies that are hostile towards working people, and as far as the left is concerned, regular betrayals of the promises they have been making to their electorate, which has led to the rise of the far right, which is also a consequence of the weakening of the traditional labor movement, which has not disappeared by any means, but that has been weakened by these past experiences of left-wing governments in power that have betrayed its electorate.

This has led to the rise of the far right, and of course, that has been fueled by an ongoing orchestrated political campaign that has been funded by very powerful forces in French society, including some of the richest people, billionaires like Vincent Bolloré, who is one of the major CEOs of the country, who have been methodically funding, for example, media empires in France to promote a racist agenda, and have been using the media part they’ve been basically building for the past decade now to instill racist, xenophobical ideas in the general population in order to convince a large swath of the population that all the issues, and I mean really all the issues, whether it be housing, whether it be unemployment, whether it be even job precarity, insufficient wages, dysfunctional public services or even in some aspects, insecurity in some neighborhoods, all of it is pinned not on the capitalist system, but on immigration. Everything is linked to immigration and foreigners.

If your housing is bad, if your social housing is bad, it’s because an immigrant has taken it. If your wage is insufficient, it’s because there are illegal aliens, as I say, who are doing the job for less, or foreigners in other countries who are competing against you. If there’s insecurity, of course it’s because it’s immigrants. If you just feel bad in general, they’ve managed to all link it to immigration somehow. It’s basically just racism. Of course, this racism is not new in France. France is a historical colonial power, so it doesn’t start 20 years ago, but they have been able to strengthen themselves because also of the weakening of the historical labor movement, which has historically been very strong in France.

It’s still strong by many aspects, if you compare it to other countries, but the counter society, the French labor movement that has historically been able to build in the working-class neighborhoods, in the workplaces, has been weakened, and its capacity to produce a counter society, a counter discourse in order to maintain working-class political ideology alive against that has been weakened, and the far right has managed to take the offensive and drive a wedge into society. That’s the situation right now, and Emmanuel Macron is, of course, being heavily influenced by that, and is leaning more and more towards the right. That is just the general political situation in France.

Marc Steiner:

Let me put some of the things you said together here, and explore them in a little bit more depth. One of the things that I think is a dynamic across the globe is the weakening of working-class movements, and the element of racism that also takes place in countries. It seems to me, the way you described this, that this is a huge dynamic in Paris. This maybe is a completely ridiculous digression, but when I was young, Paris was always this place, France was place that exiles from Africa and Asia could come and feel freer, and be part of a different kind of society. But now, with this immigration from northern Africa and other places around the globe, former colonies, the racism has come bubbling up. Talk a bit about how you see that synergy between the disappointment about how the left has responded to this, and the depth of racism you find in France itself.

Axel Persson:

Well, the immigration, of course, is not new in France, as I said, especially given the fact that France is a historical colonial power. It has built its economical power, like for example, Great Britain did, it was built on a colonial empire. After the colonialism more or less ended, and more or less because neocolonialism, of course, succeeded it, much of the French workforce has been, especially the big industrial cities like Paris or Marseille, or the big major industrial areas in France have been relying heavily on what they call workforce originating from immigration, which is basically just immigrant workers, but that’s just a fancy French term for it. French capitalism has relied heavily on it to build its factories, to build the public transport system, to build the roads. They have always been part of French society, but they were organized at the time, when they arrived massively.

It was also the time where the French labor movement was massively organized within the CGT, my trade union, which it still is to some extent. Most importantly, well, not most importantly, but also as importantly I would say, the influence of the French Communist Party was massive at the times, because it was a mass party with millions of members at the peak of its strength, running and controlling municipalities, more than 10,000 cities in France. It was, at one point actually, the biggest single party in parliament, but not just an electoral force. What is really important to comprehend is that it built a counter society in the areas it controlled. Whether it be in the workplaces, where it controlled the unions, whether it be in the working class neighborhoods where the party controlled even your local soccer club, the collective of people who would help children to do their homework at work were run by communist militants.

If you had a problem in your social housing, there would be a communist cell that would help you take care of the problem, and you would even go to holidays, if you couldn’t afford them, through the means the Communist Party had implemented through the mayors, through the municipalities it controlled, or through the funds the union had secured at the workplace specifically for these aspects, which meant that there was this complete counter society with its own media, its own structures that could implement these ideas of solidarity and anti-racism, basically. It doesn’t mean that everything was perfect, because there were many contradictions in these areas, but it meant that there was this identity and very strong class consciousness that kept the far right not inexistent, but much more marginal than it was today, and quite marginal within the working class especially. It doesn’t mean that the entire working class, of course, were like pure idealists. That doesn’t exist, of course.

The far right, at least politically, was completely marginalized within the working class, and that is what has changed since then. It’s not immigration. Actually, there are less people coming in and immigrating in France nowadays than, for example, 60 or 70 years ago. There’s much less, actually. What has changed now, though, is that given the weakening though of this historical Communist Party, which is, in many aspects, its own fault, the far right has basically managed to drive a wedge into the working class without finding this counter organized society. Many of the areas where the far right makes its highest scores are the former strongholds of the Communist Party, especially in northern France. It’s not the only thing, but that’s one of the most significant manifestations of how these dynamics have changed.

This is basically what the working class is facing now. It’s the weakening of the class consciousness, that is basically the whole gist of it. It’s the weakening of the class consciousness and the organizations that kept it alive. It doesn’t mean it has disappeared. It means that the organizations implementing it in a concrete manner have been weakened severely and it has given the far right, basically, a boulevard which to develop itself.

Marc Steiner:

It’s a very complex situation, and we only have so much time. I think we’re going to have do a whole series here to really bear down into what’s going on. France, in many ways, to me is emblematic of the rise of the right, and the dangers that the entire planet is facing. As you just described, the communist movements, the Communist Party and the left of the Socialist Party in France were the bulwark in the underground that fought the Nazis, organizing workers and standing up to them. There would’ve been no resistance without the communists and the socialists in World War II, of any significance.

Axel Persson:

Yeah.

Marc Steiner:

I’m wondering, what’s your analysis about why it fell apart? As you’ve said before, the left movement in France is not living up to its potential with Mélenchon, the new leader of this united left. The Communist Party has dwindled, and the right has really risen around Le Pen and others. It just skyrocketed. Give us your analysis of why that’s happened. Let me stop here, and I’ll have a closing question, but let me just let you explore that for a moment.

Axel Persson:

This development started in the 80s, actually, quite specifically. The beginning of the decline was in the 80s. Of course, it was a quite-long process, but it started in the 80s, specifically with the Mitterrand governments, with François Mitterrand, who got elected in 1981 and who actually got elected for another term. He was president between 1981 and 1995.

Marc Steiner:

Who was a socialist.

Axel Persson:

Yeah, a socialist, a Social Democrat.

Marc Steiner:

Right, Social Democrat.

Axel Persson:

A Social Democrat, and the first three years of his mandate for his first period actually quite lived up to the promises they had made to the electorate. Starting in 1983, and this is important in the fact that the Communist Party was associated with the government, not only did it participate and give it support in parliament, but its ministers took part in the government, and then were associated with all the decisions, and defended them, even the unpopular ones. In 1983, there was what they called the tournant de la rigueur in French, which we could translate into the austerity update.

They’re saying basically, “What we have been doing has been way too generous towards the workers, and we are not in line with the demands of the financial institutions of the French corporate world, and the public finances of the state are being under attack, basically. We need to re-evaluate our policies in order to satisfy the demands of the European Union institutions, of the international financial institutions, and also and most importantly, the French corporations.” They basically made a U-turn, and all that they had done was basically dismantled, in many aspects by themselves. And then, when the right took turn and won the next elections, they continued it, but when they came back to power, it continued as well. That was the start of the decline of the French labor movement. It hasn’t disappeared, by any means, but that was when it declined.

Marc Steiner:

Let me ask you this piece in the time we have left here. What’s the political reality that has Macron uniting with the right-wing, the far right, to create a government, and probably having have new elections, and not with this massive left-wing presence in the parliament? Why did he unite right instead of left?

Axel Persson:

Well, because what’s interesting, though, that’s why I’m insisting that it’s not dead by any means. The last election, the snap elections that were organized because Macron had decided it, he was the one who dissolved parliament, we could say were won by the Popular Front, the new Popular Front that is a coalition of the working-class historical parties, but also an alliance with trade unions such as myself and many other associations like anti-Zionist Jewish organizations, feminist organizations, associations invested against the police violence, for example, it was a broad Popular Front that won the elections but did not secure an own majority of seats. It secured the most seats in parliament as a coalition, but not its own majority, which gave the possibility to Macron, of course, to see who can build the coalition to have a majority within parliament.

It was quite clear that, given the demands of the Popular Front, which was to abolish the pension reform he had implemented last year, which was to raise significantly the minimum wage, and which was to invest significant amounts in public services, that it was out of the question for Emmanuel Macron, and that he would by any means necessary, to paraphrase Malcolm X but was on our side, to prevent our coalition from even having the possibility of trying to build a coalition in parliament, even if meant compromise on the program. For him, it was unimaginable to even give a chance to that. In that aspect, he united, and he saw that despite the dynamics of the French election, [inaudible 00:14:59], despite the rise of the far right, you could see that there had been a massive reflex of voting against the far right to prevent it from seizing state power. People voted majority for the Popular Front, but some even voted for right-wing candidates against the far right.

The major dynamics, despite our disagreements, was that the majority of the electorate wanted to prevent the far right from getting power. What he chose to see now was to see in parliament, how can we build the coalition that is at least accepted by the far right? That is what happened. Because the Popular Front doesn’t have its own majority, basically, he called on his own troops that have stayed in parliament, even though a small minority now, to seek an alliance with the historical weakened, traditional right, and then sought the far right to see that in order to prevent the Popular Front from happening, and seizing power, can we at least all agree on not overthrowing a government together in order to prevent the Popular Front from even having the slightest chance of exerting state power and abolishing the reforms I’ve made? The far right, despite all their rhetoric of being anti-systems, basically struck a deal with Macron, and said, “We will not join your government, but we will not overthrow him with a no-confidence vote in parliament,” and that is what just happened.

As history has shown on what happened in the twenties, all proportions, of course, I don’t want to make a simple Godwin point, but history shows that once again, the centrist bloc, the right bloc, the traditional right bloc is faced by the threat of a renewed strength in the working class movement, they’re gaining [inaudible 00:16:29] again, allies with the far right, and even is basically paving the way for them to seize power at next elections. Now, he has basically struck a deal with the far right in order to maintain his capacity to control the parliament.

Marc Steiner:

In many ways, you paint this very Orwellian picture. You paint a very Orwellian picture, as in George Orwell, of what’s taking place. Finally, from your perspective as a union leader, as an organizer, as part of the left in France.

Axel Persson:

Yes.

Marc Steiner:

How do you see what happens with the resistance and the ability of the left, the people’s movement, to actually take power in the face of this right-centrist, right-wing power? Where do you see it going from here?

Axel Persson:

Where I see going from here is that whatever happens, this government is… well, the government hasn’t been formed yet. He has just nominated a prime minister that is actually a traditional, known figure in France from the traditional right. The government hasn’t been composed yet, and the National Assembly hasn’t been called to session yet. That will be in October, so then, we will see. Whatever happens, this is going to be a very weak government, and it’s going to be a very unstable political situation. What things have shown also, these past weeks and past months, is that contrary to what the dominant media have been saying, which presented, basically, the ascension of the far right to state power in France as something that would inevitably happen, things have shown that when we intervene, have a coherent tactic and strategy, we can prevent them from happening by building the Popular Front, by organizing in the workplaces, because we campaigned actively all across the country, in the workplaces, in the working class neighborhoods all across the country.

We showed that, actually, we’re not just commentators of what’s happening, we actually influenced the course of history. What has been underestimated also is the fact that despite, yes, it’s undeniable, the far right is [inaudible 00:18:20], and it was, for now, the majority of French society clearly rejects the far right. It doesn’t mean that they don’t exist, the far right, but the majority still has these anti-fascist reflexes that still work.

Marc Steiner:

That’s a good thing.

Axel Persson:

We’re going to need to build on that. We’re going to need to build on that in order to transform this anti-fascist reflex into a political movement that is not only built on the rejection of this fascist program, but on the idea that we can have a better society, we can have a better future. We’re going to have to organize, so what we’re going to do very concretely is, on the 1st of October, we’re going to call for mass demonstrations to demand the annulment of the pension reform for all workers, the raising of the minimum wages, the investment in public services. It’s important, because we as trade unions are probably the only force in French society that is actually able to, at some point, unite the entire working class, including those that either vote for the far right or are influenced by their ideas.

The only situation I’ve seen in France the past years where we actually put in movement, the entire working class, despite the political differences, are on issues, for example, such as the pension issues. Then, when we go on strike and society is massively paralyzed, even workers who were influenced by the far right join our movements. These are actually the periods where the far right, in terms of media, are completely silent. They disappear because it’s not their terrain, it’s not their political terrain. They don’t talk in these periods because they feel very uncomfortable about it, because they cannot distance themselves from workers who are struggling. At the same time, they don’t want to appear towards the system as anything else that the guardian of their interests.

It puts them in a very uncomfortable position, and it’s a terrain into which we can advance, also, our political ideas, and our vision of society. Not only on the specific issues of wages, and for example, pensions, but also this idea that we need to fight together against the real enemy, and not the one they are designating, this poison they’re sowing into their ranks. That is why the strategy we’re going to try to build on is mass movements, because it’s in the mass movements that at least our political ideology can actually really gain a foothold in society, and it’s actually the only means. That is what we’re going to do now, but France is full of surprises. We’re going to see what’s going to happen this year, but everybody knows, actually, that this is going to be a very unstable, critical year in France for the coming year.

Marc Steiner:

Well, Axel Persson, first, let me thank you for always joining us, and for your really deep perspective on what’s happening in France. It’s important for the entire world, given that France is one of the largest militaries around, and it’s a usually a powerful country, and the battle against the right is significant.

Axel Persson:

Yes.

Marc Steiner:

I’m going to stay in touch, write back and forth, and after the demonstration in October, let’s reconvene, and see where we are.

Axel Persson:

Yes, we’ll see what we start there.

Marc Steiner:

As they say in Cuba, [foreign language 00:21:06].

Axel Persson:

[foreign language 00:21:10].

Marc Steiner:

[foreign language 00:21:13]. Thank you so much, Axel, it’s always good to talk to you.

Axel Persson:

Thank you for having me and see you soon. Bye.

Marc Steiner:

Once again, let me thank Axel Persson for joining us today, and giving the perspective from France of the struggle for a just society that is powerful in pushing, and it’s always enlightening to talk with him. Thanks to Cameron Grandino for running the program, audio editor Alina Nehlich, Rosette Sewali for producing The Marc Steiner Show, and the fabulous Kayla Rivara for making it all work behind the scenes, and everyone here at The Real News for making the show possible. Please, let me know what you thought about what you heard today, what you’d like us to cover. Just write to me at MSS@therealnews.com, and I’ll get right back to you. Once again, thanks Axel Persson for joining us today, and please stay with us as we cover the rise of the right here and across the globe, and talk to those who are fighting for a just world. For the crew here at The Real News, I’m Marc Steiner. Stay involved, keep listening, and take care.

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