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Harris clobbered Trump in the debate—but does it matter?

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Harris clobbered Trump in the debate—but does it matter?

Cats and dogs. Truth and lies. Substance and spectacle. The second presidential debate of the 2024 election, and the first between Kamala Harris and Donald Trump, took place on Sept. 10. In stark contrast to the first debate, which put the final nail in the coffin of the Biden candidacy, Trump was clearly on the defensive in this round. Yet with the candidates neck-and-neck in the polls, it seems unlikely that this debate will meaningfully swing voter opinion in favor of Harris. Maximillian Alvarez, Marc Steiner, Stephen Janis, and Alina Nehlich respond.

Studio / Post-Production: David Hebden


Transcript

Maximillian Alvarez:  Welcome, everyone, to The Real News Network podcast. My name is Maximillian Alvarez, I’m the editor-in-chief here at The Real News.

Stephen Janis:  My name is Stephen Janis. I’m an investigative reporter at The Real News.

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Alina Nehlich:  My name’s Alina Nehlich, and I am an editor here at The Real News and co-host of the Work Stoppage podcast.

Marc Steiner:  I’m Marc Steiner, host of The Marc Steiner Show here on The Real News.

Maximillian Alvarez:  And it is so great to have you all with us.

Now, before we get going today, I want to remind y’all really quick that The Real News is an independent, viewer- and listener-supported grassroots media network. We don’t take corporate cash. We don’t have ads, and we never put our reporting behind paywalls. Our team is fiercely dedicated to lifting up the voices and stories from the front lines of struggle around the world. But we cannot continue to do this work without your support, and we need you to become a supporter of The Real News now. Just head over to therealnews.com/donate and donate today. It really makes a difference.

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All right, well here we are. It is Wednesday, Sept. 11. Last night, former President Donald J. Trump and current Vice President Kamala Harris met in person for the first time in Philadelphia, where they squared off in their first and possibly only debate in the 2024 election season.

Early polls taken over the past 24 hours suggest that the majority of viewers felt that Harris delivered the winning performance. And given the openly vented frustrations from the Trump campaign surrogates and the jubilant spin from Harris surrogates, that is certainly the narrative that has begun to crystallize after the debate.

Harris’s campaign said today that she was open to a second debate in October, but Trump said he was “less inclined to do another debate.” So this may very well have been the one and only time the country will get to see the two candidates that they’ll be voting on in less than two months debate on stage.

There were so many storylines going into this high-stakes debate, and there are lots of storylines coming out of it. And our whole Baltimore-based team was here at The Real News studio last night watching the debates live. We’ve been furiously discussing as a team how we’re going to be moving forward from the debate with more on-the-ground reporting on the election between now and November.

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But before we all rush back into the field with our cameras and microphones, we wanted to get some of our team together here on The Real News podcast to break down the debate itself. And I’m so excited to have my colleagues Marc Steiner, Stephen Janis, and Alina Nehlich on to tackle this beast.

So I got tons of thoughts. I know you guys do too. Let’s dive right in. All right, so I want to go around the table here, and we’re going to put our pundit hats on. Not something that we normally do —

Stephen Janis:  No, we don’t.

Maximillian Alvarez:  …Here at The Real News. Of course, we’re focused on-the-ground reporting. And just as a constant disclaimer, I want to remind everyone The Real News Network is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit news outlet. We are not here to tell you how to vote. We’re not here to electioneer, but we are here to give you the information and perspective you need to act. So that is the frame in which we are going to be having this discussion.

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I want to go around the table and start by having us give our pundit reflections on the debate itself and the expectations that we had going into the debate. What were we going into this debate looking for, and what were some of the key takeaways that stood out to us? Stephen, let’s start with you.

Stephen Janis:  Well, I think everyone went into this debate wondering if Kamala Harris could perform in a national forum like that against Trump and distinguish herself to the point where she could actually move the needle a bit. I do think that was what people were looking for, and I do think she delivered on that. Clearly, by all accounts, by the snap polls, by the punditry that we listened to, she won that debate decidedly on that.

But I think what’s going to be the interesting question going forward, will that actually matter? And if it doesn’t matter, what does it say about the dynamics of this election? Because, in some ways, when you watched it, it was like watching two different realities never intersect. She was making points, and Trump was making points, but neither really seemed to be situated in a reality that was cohesive or coherent.

So I think it’ll be interesting, very interesting to watch to see if this really changes any people’s minds. That’s what my question would be.

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Alina Nehlich:  Yeah, I think that that’s pretty correct, Stephen, with at least what most people were expecting. I know that some of us, or I should say that some people maybe more on the left, were watching to see what the expectations were going to be surrounding the responses from the more liberal side of the electorate and just see the way in which things were going.

And also to what extent Kamala was going to keep moving right. Because what we did see was lots of war hawk talk and anti-immigrant sentiment. And so I guess we were kind of expecting that, but we definitely got plenty of it. Not only from Trump, which we definitely expected, but we also got plenty of that from Kamala.

Marc Steiner:  Well, I think that she came in strategically equipped. She was talking to the undecided. She was talking to the middle of the road. She was there to make Trump look like a fool and lace it with a little bit of policy.

But really, I think strategically, having lived through a lot of politics and run a bunch of campaigns as well, when you’re prepping somebody for a debate, you focus on what the weak point of the opposition is, and you go after it. And that’s what they did. She was there to make him look stupid and not prepared and unpresidential. That’s what she did.

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Maximillian Alvarez:  Well, and to take a step back even further. Going into the debate. This was something that we discussed a lot here at The Real News Network. Stephen, you and Taya Graham were at the RNC in July.

Stephen Janis:  Yes, we were.

Maximillian Alvarez:  And we were talking about just how much the political scene has changed since you guys were in Milwaukee less than two months ago.

And let’s think about what you guys were going into. We had a plan. We had a plan for your coverage going into the RNC, and then two days before it started, someone tries to assassinate Donald Trump. It was a really intense moment for all of us. I can really only imagine what it was like for you and Taya to be in there at that moment when the fervor, post-assassination attempt fervor was so intense, and it had, as you described in one of your pieces, a religious kind of tone to everything.

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So you had that. And out of that moment where Trump survived, his supporters were effusive with praise, and it really felt like, compared to the decaying Joe Biden, that this race was over. There was an act of God tipping the scale for Donald Trump. It was in that haze that I think he made the pick of J.D. Vance for his vice presidential running mate. And I think he regrets that a lot.

So since then, again, Biden dropped out, Kamala took over the ticket. Her momentum has been surging. She picked Tim Walz as her vice presidential candidate. The DNC was in August. Democrats had somehow, in the span of a month, managed to retake the momentum that felt so unshakably in the control of Trump and the Republicans.

Stephen Janis:  I think one of the things that, watching the convention up close, is that Trump, his drama, his dramatic hold on our attention depended a lot upon Joe Biden and Joe Biden’s inability to offer anything appealing or any sort of visual contrast or even ideological contrast, because Biden was not a very good communicator at this point or ever really was.

And when you’re at the convention, there was this dystopian vision of American life. It was a constant drumbeat of things like inflation and crime, without any policy whatsoever.

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And I think the Trump campaign had based its entire strategy on the aesthetics of Trump somehow being stronger, invoking fear, and then having this very… I mean, let’s say, I don’t want to use the word feeble, but that’s kind of what… Feeble old man, and what happened to them.

Of course, as you point out, when he showed up with the bandage on his ear, there was an ecstasy in that room that was very unsettling in some ways. Because it wasn’t really attached to any political reality, it was more a rhetorical statement.

But then when Kamala comes in, suddenly that contrast in the aesthetics and all that dynamic shifted in a second. And suddenly, as we could see last night in playing this out last night, Trump looked old, mean, bitter, and somehow disconnected from reality. So that’s a really good point, Max.

Maximillian Alvarez:  Well, and I just wanted to, again, remind folks about how much has actually shifted since the last debate.

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Stephen Janis:  Oh my God.

Maximillian Alvarez:  There’s a constant knee-jerk assumption that we all make, and that people we know make, which is that the debates don’t matter. People who support Trump are going to keep supporting Trump, people who support Biden are going to keep supporting Biden. Then the debate at the beginning of this summer happens, and the result is Biden drops out of the race.

The result was seeing an open revolt with the party elite. The donor class, the media class rebelling against Biden staying on the ticket. That’s a significant thing to happen in a presidential race, but it’s already… It’s old news at this point.

And that is the other part that I wanted to mention going into the debate. What I was looking for and what I was thinking about was, what I was really fascinated by is that over the past two months, it feels like Donald Trump has become victim of the very things, the very qualities of the internet age that have catapulted him to his success and his star power up until now. The very things that have allowed Donald Trump to thrive as a political force in the internet age have been biting him back over the past two months.

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And the two examples I would give is one, Trump has always thrived on the fact that the internet age has conditioned us all to have the long-term memory of goldfish. And he weaponizes the insatiable pace of the 24-hour news cycle to constantly just generate new headlines with the crazy stuff he says, the crazy things he’s doing in office, the crazy accusations that he’s making.

And since 2016, the media and the political class have never really figured out how to deal with that, how to counter that. But Trump is a creature of the internet in that way, and he knows how to swim in those waters, and it’s helped him so much over the past eight years in the Trump era.

And yet, he forgot that lesson when the assassination attempt happened. He thought that that vibe that you were feeling in the RNC, Stephen, was going to carry him all the way through November. And something as consequential and historic as an attempted assassination on a former president, current presidential candidate, that shit got memory holed in a month, less than that. People forgot. People stopped caring, and Trump doesn’t know what to do with that.

So he’s a victim of the thing that made him a success. In the same way that Trump is an internet troll, as we all know how great and adept he is at the art of trolling, he picked J.D. Vance as his vice presidential ticket. And then the internet just had a field day with that. They’ve been trolling him left and right and ridiculing Trump, Vance. Democrats had pounced on the “these guys are weird” messaging, and stoking the internet meme machine that has been attacking Trump and the Republicans.

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I don’t think Trump knows what to do with that quite yet because he spent the whole of August complaining about how Biden should have to get back on the ticket because he was an easy opponent.

And so going into this debate, I was like, how is Trump going to attack? Because I think he’s got a lot of pent up rage and aggression, of course. But he’s also shown a lot of vulnerabilities in the past two months. So that was also what I was going into.

And the last thing I’ll say, because I’ve been talking a lot, is we knew that this debate, for all the reasons we’ll talk about in a few minutes, was going to be a carnival-esque display of capitalist politics crafted in the capitalist spectacle of horrors that…

Again, we all know what’s wrong about this system, what’s wrong about the election, the way we talk about elections and all that kind of stuff. So we knew it was going to be a carnival-esque display, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t going to be a consequential one. Just like the last debate, this debate could have had, and may still have real, ramifications for the shape of this election and the fate of the country that hangs in the balance.

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And so I want to pick up on that and ask if we could focus in a little more on the debate itself and our impressions of how Trump and Harris handled themselves with all of that leading up into the debate itself.

Alina Nehlich:  Well, speaking a little bit to what Stephen was mentioning with the RNC and Trump being a strongman in contrast to Biden’s more feeble, or however you want to phrase it, position in the election. I think that what we saw in the debate was Kamala trying to take that strong person narrative and use it against Trump in that same way. I believe at one point, she even called him weak on things. There’s always this, “I’m tougher than you.”

And it’s really interesting how the Democrats have gone in that direction compared to… Maybe I’m still a little young in that I’ve only seen, what, five elections in my lifetime, but I don’t always think of the Democrats as the, “I’m the strong person,” compared to the Republicans. And the fact that that is now Kamala’s take was surprising to me.

But also looking at the way that, as you were saying, Max, about the very short attention span of people, they do want to just have an image in their head. I think that even part of the purpose of this debate was to put Kamala up there on stage and remind people that this is the candidate, in a certain sense.

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Sure, I bet some people have seen press conferences, maybe some people have seen clips of her rallies. But I don’t know if they really had a true mental image of her as the potential president and her being up there on stage with the camera and her looking nice in the suit and all that. It really did actually give that kind of presidential look. And I think that that was another major purpose of the debate itself, along with the interesting change in the way that the rhetoric is going from the Democrats.

Maximillian Alvarez:  And just a quick note on the Democratic posturing outflanking Republicans by being more Republican than they are. It’s been a back and forth thing, but it was really in the early ’90s when the new Democrats with Clinton… After getting their asses whooped by Reagan and Bush, Democrats were really soul-searching. And the answer they came up for was let’s out-right the right and be tough on crime, and let’s take the gun out of their hands because they’re always calling us weak, and yada, yada, yada.

And so for my lifetime, it’s been a back and forth between trying to position themselves as the more compassionate side, the more progressive side. While at the same time, as Alina was saying, I’ve witnessed, at first as a conservative who grew up in the first 20 years of my life, and now as the lefty nut job you see before you, I’ve seen the ways that Democrats have jockeyed for position to establish themselves as the more, the stronger, no BS, tough on crime. The party that could simultaneously say, we are the compassionate party that wants to have the most lethal fighting force on the face of the planet, kind of thing.

And so it was really arresting to me to watch on the debate stage, all of that political maneuvering, all of the policy decisions, all of the messaging campaigns that have had real harsh, real world impacts for working people culminate in the thing that Democrats wanted to get out of that, which was taking out of a Republican candidate’s hand the ability to say, well, you guys are soft on the border. You guys are soft on Gaza. And Kamala could say, no, we’re not. I love Israel more than you. We’re stronger on the border than you. My running mate and I are gun owners.

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And then that’s it. Is that what it was all leading to, just like that rhetorical, nope, you can’t get us there, so we win, kind of thing?

Marc Steiner:  I think what you said is true. I think it’s also more complex than that. I think that because, being someone who’s a deep believer in dialectics [laughs], there’s an intertwining of things here. And so first of all, take into account that we’re living in an America at this moment where a Black woman, a Black Asian woman, is running neck and neck, if not a little bit in front, to be president of the United States in a country with a deep racist past.

We might live on politics and the intricacies of that. Most people don’t. People look at this very symbolically. They look at it as, look where we’ve come. Look what’s happened.

Think about our country historically. We had a civil war. We had Reconstruction that destroyed everything they fought for in the Civil War and began the lynching of Black people and disenfranchising Black folks in the South. And after Reconstruction, we had the Civil Rights Movement and all the pushback from the right and a large part of the white world against everything we fought for in civil rights. And I say we, because that was me.

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And now you’re seeing this complexity up there. When Kamala Harris was up there, she was — And I’m not talking politics at the moment. I’m just talking about what people take in. Here was this woman standing solid, strong, taking on this big white fat buffoon, and she wiped the floor with him. And so yes, that has something to do with the complexity of how you appeal to people in America. Why did Teddy Roosevelt win? Because he came off as a badass, I’m a bull moose. We’re not going to take anything from anybody. That’s why he won. That’s not all of America. That’s part of America.

Stephen Janis:  Obviously Harris was much more competent than Trump as a debater.

Marc Steiner:  Absolutely.

Stephen Janis:  Okay. And so it’s been a mystery to me the past four years, because as leftists, or people who lean left, we’ve seen a lot of progressive legislation, we’ve seen a lot of progressive ideas actually become reality under the Biden administration, but it hasn’t affected the electorate at all. And that’s what I’m wondering about the debate. Obviously Harris was more competent, did a better job. But will it change people’s minds in the sense that they seem inured to any sort of policy?

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The Infrastructure Act, the CHIPS Act. All these things have been implemented in a much less neoliberal way and more — Well, some of them are market-based. But some of them, like the Infrastructure Act or the Inflation Reduction Act, are much more traditional, leftist, progressive, let’s say.

But it doesn’t really… And Marc, I don’t know, or Max, or anyone can weigh in on this, it doesn’t seem to connect with people. Everyone thinks everything is miserable, and Biden’s done a horrible job in the economy. And yet, what we would want as progressives to see happen happened, and even we don’t like it. So it just makes me wonder whether the debate matters, in that sense.

Maximillian Alvarez:  Well, I think it’s a great question. It does speak to the spectacle of the debate itself. And I think this partially answers the question. But it’s something we talked about after the RNC and the DNC. These are spectacles manufactured for the camera. They are politics made symbol at its highest point. It’s politics made for the camera.

And the same is true for the debate stage. Marc, you mentioned the image, the symbolism, and the impact that that has on people. Let’s not forget that television, the first televised debate swung that presidential election away from Nixon towards Kennedy. Nixon looked sweaty.

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I watched it. I did watch it. [Steiner and Alvarez laugh].

Stephen Janis:  So you can testify.

Maximillian Alvarez:  Nixon was not ready to be on TV and glow and shine through the way that Kennedy did, and that had a major impact. And so I mention that just to mention that in terms of stage managing the spectacle and the symbolic value that people project onto that and that’s projected back at us, is almost its own thing.

Stephen Janis:  Max —

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Maximillian Alvarez:  Divorced from policy.

Stephen Janis:  Just one thing. [Inaudible]. Marc, I’m sorry, but Marc, you can answer this. Oh, I’m sorry. Oh my God. But just quickly, I want to throw this question out. Nixon got in trouble for being a little sweaty, and yet Trump was insane. Why does that —

Marc Steiner:  Different era.

Maximillian Alvarez:  Oh yeah, our country’s gone…

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Stephen Janis:  Sorry, I just wanted to ask that question. I apologize.

Maximillian Alvarez:  Oh, no. We got decades of insanity that have compounded from that moment on [laughs]. But yeah, but Trump still, again, he’s able to… He’s a product of that same lineage that itself has gone through decades of evolution with the transition to 24-hour news cycle, cable TV, reality TV, streaming, the internet. So I think you can connect a through line to Donald Trump today to Nixon 60 years ago.

But I think that the media environment, our expectations, the ways that politicians have played to the debate and to the television, and the ways that has shaped the very politics that our two-party system bases itself around. There’s a whole… Don’t worry. We can have a whole long discussion about that, but at another time.

I guess the point I was just trying to make, though, is that in terms of the symbolism and the spectacle of these debates, they almost operate on their own terms, divorced from policy and the political reality that we all live in. There is some semblance of a connection, but it’s almost like a production that we have to analyze on its own terms.

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And I wanted us to just hover there for a second because, on the terms of the debate that we all watched, I think, to extract some of the key points that we’ve offered here, Kamala Harris went in prepared. Like Marc said, she had a key objective there, which it seemed apparent to us that she achieved.

My two cents in watching that is that where she was most effective as a debater was baiting Trump and distracting him. I don’t think she nailed a knockout punch against Trump because you just don’t do that against Donald Trump. He’s going to keep going no matter what. He’s going to keep talking even if he sounds like an idiot. That’s his strength. He will just keep going and move past it.

But what she managed to do with all of these traps that she laid, calling him weak, like Alina said, mentioning his crowd sizes, mentioning people in his own party who have called him out as a failure, mentioning world leaders around the country who think he’s a disgrace. She knew each time she mentioned those, that the next time Trump got to speak, he was not going to address whatever he was asked to address. He was going to go back to the insult, or the thing that he took as an insult. And he did, every single time.

And so what that did was it distracted Trump from being more of an attack dog against Harris and the Biden-Harris record. And so in that way, she was a success on the debate stage, but again, it was more of evading the kill blows from Trump and knocking him off kilter, making him look like more of a buffoon.

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But in terms of articulating a positive vision for the country, in terms of really hammering home what Harris and the Democrats are going to do to address the things that Trump was speaking most directly to, like people’s pain in today’s economy and the inflation squeeze that all of us have been feeling, things like that, this narrative of national decline. I don’t know, personally, how well she parried that, with the exceptions being when she talked about abortion. And I mean, that was honestly the main one.

Her message on the economy was still, I mean, she mentioned the small business thing like 800 times. But I don’t know, what do you guys think?

Alina Nehlich:  I guess when it comes to — And I’m sorry if I’m jumping ahead of other people here.

Marc Steiner:  You’re not. Go ahead.

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Alina Nehlich:  I was just thinking about the spectacle nature that you’re talking about and how it was a question of how can Trump be so divorced from reality? Not to give Kamala way too much credit, but she’s at least a little bit more grounded than Trump.

You think, you look at what is happening on the internet today, it’s just loads of memes. Whether it’s the silly, the ridiculous pet eating story, or the one where Trump’s like, Kamala’s letting trans people get gender-affirming care in prison, which is fine and good if it was real. And that’s why some of the memes are out there being like, wow, so trans people are now trying to go to prison to get these things that were promised to them by Donald Trump.

I mean, I think some of those memes are a little distasteful for a couple of reasons. But I do think that the fact that the memes are going around, that is emblematic of what this whole thing is really about.

Marc Steiner:  I think most people in America, most people period around on the planet, are not into the intricacies of policy. They’re just not into the intricacies of policy at all. That’s not their lives. They know what they believe, what they think is right and wrong.

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And you had Kamala Harris there talking about… She didn’t go into detail. You talked about opportunity economy. She talked about reproductive freedom in America. She talked about making housing more affordable, things people can relate to. She didn’t have to point out, this is how I’m going to do it. I’m going to give X number of people houses. But what she did was articulate a vision that appealed to people’s gut. She was talking last night to the undecided voter in America, to those in the margins, to those who will make a difference in who wins this election.

My take on this, what happened last night, it was a very savvy, strategic move on the part of the Democrats and Kamala Harris, the way they handled the debate. And she came off tough as nails. And we’re in a world now where a tough Black woman — I know she’s Black and Asian, but a tough Black woman in America was anathema to this country. It’s not the same anymore in terms of the visceral reaction people have because America’s changed. It is changing, not changed. It’s changing. And so the old white way is not the only way in America that people look at. And I think that she played into all that.

If there was a real left alternative in America, it’d be different there. There isn’t. Most of the left alternative is either inside the Democratic Party, inside the burgeoning labor union movement. They’re not in any coalesced group. We don’t have an NDP like Canada has. So I think people saw in her somebody who is fighting for them and not for the corporate interests, viscerally speaking.

Stephen Janis:  To your point, Marc, the left has been very harsh on Biden. And a lot of the programs that have been passed were not cohesive because we don’t really seem to fixate on execution and competence. And that’s the thing. She was much better, obviously a masterful debater compared to Trump. But I just wonder if, three or four days down the road now and the polls are still the same, what do we conclude from that? Where are we? Is it because the left isn’t embracing this candidacy, or is it something else?

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Marc Steiner:  We’re a divided nation. We are a deeply divided nation. Since the Civil Rights Movement, to the anti-war movement, to the organizing that happened in the ’60s, politically, and with unions, there was this right-wing surge, and they are a powerful force.

Maximillian Alvarez:  Well, I want to round us out by talking about that. How much do we think this debate is going to matter in the election?

Stephen Janis:  Good question.

Maximillian Alvarez:  And let’s also throw our pundit hats off for a second and put our reporter hats back on. Given the work that we do every week: Police Accountability Report, Work Stoppage, Working People, The Marc Steiner Show, I want us to round out by also talking about what and who was not being represented on that debate stage or in this election, and how should our audience and regular people out there navigate it?

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So that’s where we’re going. But by way of getting there, I’d be remiss if I didn’t say, let’s at least go around the table and talk about our best, favorite crazy moments from the debate last night [Steiner laughs], because there were many, and I’m sure listeners don’t want to hear us be all serious all the time.

So what were some of the most ridiculous standout moments for you guys? I guess we took the most ridiculous one, so no one can use that. But Trump just farting out of his mouth this right wing conspiracy theory bullshit about undocumented migrants eating people’s pets. It’s just nuts. It really spoke to what you said, Stephen, about how, for one moment, we got to see these two alternate versions of reality sharing the same space. But they’re barely even talking to each other. They’re barely, if at all, on a shared terrain of reality.

Stephen Janis:  Let me just go first because someone takes my — And I’ll make it very quick. I just thought the handshake moment was fascinating because Kamala comes out and just forcefully puts out her hand.

Marc Steiner:  Walks to him.

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Stephen Janis:  And walks to him. And we talked about spectacle, symbols. I thought that was highly symbolic more than anything else, because she just demanded that… Because that was always a tradition, that candidates would shake their hands. Look, we all have different views and left, right, whatever, but we do want to see people be civil. We all want some civility. And the fact that she went out and made that statement and gesture showed that, I think, she was not to be trifled with. So that was my moment.

Alina Nehlich:  Okay. So I already mentioned those two, so I’m not going to talk about the two that I brought up before. But I think that one of the moments that really stuck out for me was when Trump said, “I’m speaking to Kamala,” because that was just wild to see. Especially with the basically near pro-genocide rhetoric that was going on on the debate stage for Trump to call out that moment, which was based in a rally where Kamala was trying to stop anti-genocide protesters from voicing their demands and saying, “I’m speaking.” And then to see Trump do that, I don’t know. I thought that that was very funny to me, in an ironic but also horrible way.

Marc Steiner:  There were so many jabs and barbs that she threw at him that he just didn’t know how to respond to. I mean, when she said, “81 million people threw you out of office.”

Maximillian Alvarez:  No, she said, “81 million people fired Donald Trump.”

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Marc Steiner:  Fired! Fired!

Maximillian Alvarez:  I’m sorry, fired. She very specifically used that word.

Stephen Janis:  That was brilliant.

Marc Steiner:  He came out, “You’re fired,” from his TV show, and 81 million people. That’s right. Right, exactly. I’m sorry. You’re absolutely right, Max.

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Stephen Janis:  That was brilliant.

Marc Steiner:  I think what happened in this race at the moment because of the debate is that it gave the Harris-Walz ticket a boost, and it pushed them ahead. I think, viscerally, people liked watching what happened. Americans like seeing somebody’s ass get kicked. They do. It is part of nature; boxing, wrestling, rugby, football. And I think that this is really going to give them a boost. And I think that he’s nervous and frightened to death at the moment.

Stephen Janis:  It’s got to be particularly humiliating for him because you had MMA fighters and wrestling and Hulk Hogan at his… I was there.

Marc Steiner:  Right.

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Stephen Janis:  It was like a World Wrestling match more than a convention.

Marc Steiner:  He plays a tough guy, but he’s a punk. [Laughs] I’m sorry. That’s not a partisan Republican/Democrat thing. I’ll stop here, Max. But when you grow up like I did, and like you did, you can tell a phony on the street when they act like they’re a tough guy. You know exactly [laughs]… I’m sorry, I’ll stop.

Maximillian Alvarez:  No, no, no [Alvarez and Steiner laugh]. I think because, again, if we’re talking about how people are seeing this, that matters. And especially it matters for someone like Trump who has based his entire political career on being that strong person, and having that unshakable strength and virility.

And the only thing I would add to that is just that I think what Democrats and folks in the liberal center, for whatever that means in today’s political arrangement — In most other countries, our political center would be the far right of other countries. As you said, we don’t really have an institutional left to speak of, yada, yada yada.

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But I do think one of the things that the Harris campaign has shown is that Democrats have been learning from the first time we saw Trump ascend in 2016. They have learned a few things.

Let’s be honest. None of us thought that Harris was going to make Walz her pick because it seemed like the right pick, it seemed like the obvious pick if they wanted to win and garner people’s votes. But just by everything we knew about the Democratic establishment, the past was telling us it was not going to be Walz. And then it was.

And then even them doubling down on the “these guys are weirdos,” messaging, it was like, holy shit, I’m not used to the Democrats being good on offense.

But at the same time, I think what the debate showed, hopefully, is that one of the things, one of the perennial psychoses of the Trump era is that everyone has been longing for that never going to come moment where Trump is cornered and admits defeat and admits he was wrong. He’s never going to fucking do that — Pardon my French — Ever.

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The guy I always think of is the general in Mars Attacks when the Martian is shrinking him with a ray right before the Martian squashes him with its boot. And the guy is just shooting at the Martian the whole time yelling at him. That’s Trump. He’s not going to stop yelling and shooting ever.

And so stop trying to corner him into a moment where you’re going to get this admission of guilt or anything. He’s not going to give it to you. So the best that you can do is just expose him and make him look weak and use his personality against him so that the perception of him changes even if he never does.

Stephen Janis:  Max, as we were taking an Uber to here to watch the debate, there was a man who had been a Democrat, and he was Muslim, and he said he was voting for Trump. And we were asking him about this, how he could reconcile Trump’s comments and things he said, and he got back to your point about Trump is strong. He will subdue dictators. Even though, as we point out every problematic aspect of Trump’s foreign policy and how bad he would be for the Palestinian people, he still stuck to his guns that Trump, he was going to vote for Trump. It’s strange.

Maximillian Alvarez:  Strange is absolutely the word.

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Stephen Janis:  I can’t rationalize it.

Maximillian Alvarez:  No, because so much of it is irrational. Again, that’s the burning core of Trump’s politics is there is an irrationality at the heart of it that doesn’t need to be bogged down by rational justifications.

Stephen Janis:  Not at all.

Maximillian Alvarez:  It’s just vibes and anger and frustration and all these ugly feelings given a direction to go in. That’s what you need. And that’s, again, why we got to stop trying to over-intellectualize the Trump movement, because if we don’t understand the role that irrationality plays in keeping that movement going and in keeping people believing in it, then we’re never going to understand Trump and his appeal.

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The last thing I would say on the weirdness, the strangeness of the debate that kept hitting me was every single time Trump would go on a bonkers rant that he would end with, they are destroying this country. It’s going to be bedlam, everything, just the most batshit thing he could say, followed quickly by a, thank you, Mr. President, from the moderators and moving on to the next thing.

Just that dissonance, because it just shows that this is… I know in 2016 from the moment Donald Trump descended that golden escalator — Well, in 2015 — We’ve been reciting the mantra, “This is not normal.” It fucking isn’t, but it’s become our normal. But when I see stuff like that, it’s just these little hints that like, man, this is a ridiculous and dangerous and frightening political reality that is being treated with the gloves of political normalcy.

Stephen Janis:  The moderators this time were a little bit better than the previous.

Maximillian Alvarez:  They were. They absolutely were.

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Stephen Janis:  But you’re right. You’re right. It’s become normalized, and we cover it like that.

Maximillian Alvarez:  Right.

Alina Nehlich:  Well, and I was going to say, if we could get to the reporting part that you had mentioned a little bit ago before we wrap up here. I did want to mention, you mentioned the wildness and the contradictions. I think that looking at Kamala mentioning the existential crisis of climate change and then being absolutely against a fracking ban. We produced more oil and all of these things that are horrible for the environment, but then somehow still claiming to be so pro-environmental is, I think, one of the things that stands out in regards to that aspect of the debate to me. Specifically as someone who is younger and cares really a lot about the planet being burned to death.

Maximillian Alvarez:  Yep. Well, let’s end on that because in a way, this is fitting [crosstalk]. Because again, we don’t do punditry all the time here. We wanted to give our reflections on the debate. But our bread and butter, what we’ve been doing before this, what we’re going to be doing after this, as you guys listening know, is we’re going to get out there and report. We want to tell your stories.

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We want to see how this stuff is impacting you and your communities. We want to talk to the folks who are fighting back against this right-wing demagoguery, against this bipartisan consensus on doubling down on anti-immigrant sentiment, pro-genocide support for Israel’s war on Gaza. We want to go to the front lines of struggle where these things are not just talking points, but they are people’s lives and lived realities.

And so that, in a way, is what we’re going to be covering throughout the rest of this election season and beyond. So it’s like this podcast is the breather between.

But I do want to maybe just end on that point, like Alina was saying is, what from our reporting past and future do we really want to emphasize for folks that was not being addressed on the debate stage or that is not going to be impacted by this current election, or what either of these two candidates are saying? I guess just any thoughts we wanted to share on stories we really want folks to focus on or reflections that we want to leave people with before we ourselves head back out into the field to do our reporting.

Marc Steiner:  If Harris wins, we have a lot of work to do. Different kind of work. And that is to talk more about the union organizing going on, people rising up from the bottom and fighting. It means taking on the right wing in this country and what they can do to America. It means fighting for justice, Israel, Gaza. There are things we have to really put out there that have to push the envelope and push the discussion.

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Stephen Janis:  I hope that we can emphasize, I see very little mention of what I think drives all of these problems, is economic inequality and rising economic inequality, and that we are going to continue to bring that context to our reporting.

Maximillian Alvarez:  Yes. Absolutely. And like Alina said, the absurdity of how neither of the parties is really taking the climate crisis seriously as we are quite literally in the final years to do something to seriously change the outcome for our children and our children’s children. And we’re not doing it.

And so to see what is going to be the defining political and existential question of the rest of our lives and our children’s lives be batted around in such a blase, meaningless moment on a debate stage. When I look back, if I make it to 70 and I’m looking back at that, I have a feeling —

Marc Steiner:  [Crosstalk] What are you talking about?

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Maximillian Alvarez:  Well, I’m just saying I probably won’t make it to that. But if I do, looking back at moments like that and looking at the world that our parents’ generations left us with, I don’t think I’ll be able to really ever make peace with that.

But yeah, obviously we talked about this after the DNC. The cognitive and emotional dissonance between the joyful, jubilant nature of what was going on inside the convention and the reality that we’re reporting on every week of a genocide happening in our name with bombs made in this country, with our tax dollars.

We are showing people the human cost of that. We published two documentaries on it, one from the West Bank, one from Gaza this week. That is all happening while this is all happening. What we’ve seen from both parties is they are not going to change course on that.

So what we know is what we’ve been reporting on over the past year, that it’s going to depend on the people of the world to make that kind of change, to make power bend to their will. And that is where we’re going to be, at the places where working people here in the U.S. and around the world are building power and making power bend to their will.

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And so with that, let’s wrap up this post debate podcast. I’m so, so grateful to my colleagues, Stephen Janis, Marc Steiner, Alina Nehlich for this incredible conversation. Please let us know what you thought, share your reflections on the debate and storylines that you want to see us cover moving forward between now and November and beyond.

And please, one more time before you leave, we need your support to keep bringing you more important coverage and conversations just like this. So head on over to therealnews.com/donate and support our work today. We really appreciate it. For The Real News Network, this is Maximillian Alvarez. Take care of yourselves. Take care of each other. Solidarity forever.

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All Creatures Great and Small fans 'crying' as James Herriot bids farewell after heartbreaking death

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All Creatures Great and Small fans 'crying' as James Herriot bids farewell after heartbreaking death


All Creatures Great and Small viewers were left in tears on Thursday night as James Herriot (Nicholas Ralph) was away from Skeldale and his love Helen

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Federal Reserve puts on enormous party hat

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This is an audio transcript of the Unhedged podcast episode: ‘Federal Reserve puts on enormous party hat

Katie Martin
A great moment in history has arrived. Rob Armstrong was right about something. Quite against the run of play — shush, Rob — quite against the run of play, the Federal Reserve has cut interest rates — hurrah — from the highest level in decades, and for the first time since the pandemic. And what’s more, it went large, cutting by half-a-point, precisely as my esteemed colleague had predicted.

What kind of voodoo is this? Does the Fed know something horrible we don’t? Cutting by half-a-point is normally a crisis measure, a cry for help. Should we panic about a recession? And really, Rob was right. End times.

Today on the show, we’re going to explain how come investors are ignoring the usual script and taking this bumper cut as a good thing. This is Unhedged, the markets and finance podcast from the Financial Times and Pushkin. I’m Katie Martin, a markets columnist here at FT Towers in London. And listeners, I must tell you, the saddest of things has happened. I’m joined by Rob Armstrong, lord of the Unhedged newsletter. But the sad thing is he’s dialling in from his sickbed. Rob, I’m sorry, you’re poorly.

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Robert Armstrong
I am poorly. It’s terrible. But on a 50-basis-point day, the dead shall rise from their graves. The angels shall sing. And we all . . . we’re all gonna talk about it.

Katie Martin
Yes. Good, strong Barry White vibes I’m getting from this voice you’re busting out today. So, as you say, half a percentage point from the Fed; that’s 50 basis points in market money. Normally central banks love being super boring and they normally move by quarter-point increments. So, I mean, was it the shock of being right about the 50-basis-point thing that pushed you over the edge into sickness?

Robert Armstrong
It could have been. I’m so accustomed to getting this wrong now that it was really paralysing. However, I think, you know, you mentioned earlier, why is the market kind of taking this in stride and seeing this as a good thing? And I think it’s a bit of a communications success by the Fed in that they told the story about this, that they’re not doing this because they have to, because it’s an emergency. They’re doing it because they can.

Katie Martin
So gangster.

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Robert Armstrong
And the reason they can is because they’ve kind of beaten inflation. Right?

Katie Martin
So for people who, unlike us, have a life and don’t sit around watching central bank press conferences, the way this works is they do the decision, they say, here you are, here’s your 25 or 50 whatever basis points, or we’re on hold. This time around, it was 50 basis points.

And then just a little while later, there’s a press conference where the chairman, Jay Powell, gets up in front of like all of the kind of most pointy headed Fed journalists in the world and fields whatever questions. There’s a statement, and then he field whatever questions they want to throw at him. And this for him was the point of highest danger, because the risk of giving the impression somehow that . . . 

Robert Armstrong
Yes.

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Katie Martin
Yeah, we’re really worried. That’s why we’ve done 50. That was a serious risk, right? But instead, what happened?

Robert Armstrong
Well, right from the press release announcing the 50 basis cut, they tweaked the language in the press release so that it was more affirmative and strong on the topic of inflation. We’re really pleased how it’s going on inflation.

Katie Martin
Right, right.

Robert Armstrong
And then in the press release, I mean in the press conference, he just reinforced that point again and again. The line he repeated was the labour market is fine, it’s healthy. It is at a good level. We don’t need it to get any better. We’re not trying to improve it, but we have the freedom to make sure it stays as good as it is.

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And that message seems to have gone through. Markets didn’t move yesterday afternoon. And as a very, you know, opening minutes of trading this morning, stocks are up. So that message seems to have gotten through.

Katie Martin
Yeah. That is skills, actually. You know, I will hand it to them. Because, you know, it’s . . . we’ve said this before on this podcast. Like, it’s so easy to like throw stones and peanuts at the Fed or the European Central Bank, the Bank of England or whatever and say they messed this up. But, like, this stuff is hard. Getting the markets to come away with that sort of impression is not to be taken for granted.

Robert Armstrong
It’s not to be taken for granted. I agree. However, I will note any time you’re trying to spin a narrative and you want people to believe it, one thing that really helps is if the narrative is true. And in this case, I think it broadly is.

I think inflation really does look like it’s whipped. It’s really either at or very close to 2 per cent. And look, with an unemployment rate of 4.2 per cent and basically no increase in lay-offs and the economy is still adding jobs, I think the economy is pretty good. So it’s not like he had to spin a magical tale of unicorns and wizards here. He just had to, you know, make a case based on the facts.

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Katie Martin
Yeah. And and that kind of goes back to the fact that the Fed is not quite like all the central banks in that it has to look after inflation, but it also has to look after the jobs market. And so, you know, again, the risk is that you come away from a decision like this and think, well, you know, those little cracks that we’ve seen in the jobs market, maybe they’re the start of something really big and hairy and awful, but he seems to have massaged this one away.

Robert Armstrong
Indeed. Impressive performance.

Katie Martin
And so the other thing they do in this press conference is they give the general public and sad nerds like us a little bit of a taster about what’s coming next from the Fed, right. So they’re always, like, central bankers are at pains to say none of this stuff is a promise. This is just our kind of best current understanding of the state of the universe. But so, then you end up with this thing called — drumroll — the dot.

Robert Armstrong
The dot plot.

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Katie Martin
The dot plot. Explain for normal people what the dot plot is.

Robert Armstrong
OK. So it’s kind of a grid. And along the bottom are the years 2024 through 2027, and then another column for the infinite future. And then there’s a range of interest rates going up and down on the side. And every member of the monetary policy committee puts a little dot in each year column where they think the rate is gonna be in that year. Cue much speculation about what all this means, how they’ve changed their mind since the last dot plot and, you know, the implications of all of this.

Katie Martin
Whose dot is whose? We’ll never know.

Robert Armstrong
They don’t reveal whose dot is whose. That’s an important point. And by the way, Katie, according to everything we hear out of the Fed, having invented this device, which was supposed to increase clarity and make everyone’s life easier, everyone in the Fed now hates it and wishes it would go away . . . 

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Katie Martin
Damn you, dot plot!

Robert Armstrong
Because it just causes endless, idiotic little niggling questions from people like me and you. But once you’ve invented something like this, if you take it away, people get upset.

Katie Martin
So you look at the dots and you look at what Jay Powell was saying at the press conference and what does it all add up to? Does it mean that, like, OK, they’ve started with 50 basis points, so like 50 is the new 25? Get used to it, boys and girls?

Robert Armstrong
If you look at the dot plot and their kind of aggregate expectations of where rates are gonna go, it is not that 50 is the new 25. The implication is that the rate of cuts is going to be very measured — or might I say stately, from here until they reach their target.

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Katie Martin
Right, right.

Robert Armstrong
And, you know, another point to mention here is where they think they need to go is very important. That’s the kind of last part of the dot plot is, like, where should interest rates be when everything is normal again?

Katie Martin
Because that will happen one day. And . . . 

Robert Armstrong
Yeah, that will happen. They think it’s gonna happen sometime around 2026, 27. We’ll get to where it’s about normal and they’re looking for about 3 per cent rates in the long run and that . . . so that’s where we’re going to. Just to set the context, we cut from 5.5 per cent to 5 per cent yesterday. And the map of the dot plot shows us moving towards a little under 3 per cent over time. And it’s a matter of how quickly are we going to get there, and along the way, are we going to change our mind and decide we have to go somewhere else?

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Katie Martin
Yeah. So is there a kind of joyful hope that maybe the Fed could be, like, boring again and it can just sort of do 25 basis points here and there and just take this kind of glide path lowering rates that doesn’t get people excited any more?

Robert Armstrong
Well, this is the problem about the future is that it is hard to predict and particularly hard to predict with interest rates. The issue is that the economy, the structure of the economy has changed a lot in the last couple of years because of the pandemic and for other reasons. So that final destination point I talked about, which economists call the neutral rate, which is the just normal, everything is boring and steady rate of interest in the economy where everyone has a job, there’s no inflation, everything’s cool, the neutral rate. We don’t know what that number is.

And Jay Powell has this line about it. We know it by its works. And what that means, stated less calmly, is we know it when we screw it up. In other words, we hit it, we go past it. We push interest rates above the neutral rate and stocks have a big puke and the economy starts to slow down and people get fired or we travel too far below it and inflation starts again. So like the Fed over the next couple of years is like walking down this passage in the complete dark and it knows it can’t touch the wall on its left or the wall on its right. Right? But it doesn’t know the shape of the passageway, what direction it’s supposed to go. So it’s just like, well, I sure hope we’re going this way. Dee-dee-dee. And hope it doesn’t hit too low or too high along the way.

Katie Martin
Hope it doesn’t just walk into a wall.

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Robert Armstrong
The history of interest rates is history of feeling your way along in the dark.

Katie Martin
Rob, that’s the most lyrical thing I’ve ever heard you say.

Robert Armstrong
Isn’t it? It’s poetry. It’s because I’m so ill. These could be the final words of a dying man.

Katie Martin
What meds are you on for this cold you’ve got?

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Robert Armstrong
This could be my legacy, Katie. (Laughter)

Katie Martin
I feel like we should kind of wrap up quite soon before you just like expire during the recording.

Robert Armstrong
I do. As much as I like you, I’d like to have a few words with my wife before I shove off.

Katie Martin
But I will ask you, are we ever going back to like zero interest rates, do you think? Or are we gonna look back on that…

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Robert Armstrong
I feel like I’ve been asking a lot of questions. This is a great question, Katie, but let me push it back on you. We had this wild period in the last decade where there was like a gajillion dollars of sovereign bonds issued at a negative interest rate.

Katie Martin
I think that was something like $18tn or something.

Robert Armstrong
Money was free. It was bonkers. And it was like the Fed funds rate was up against zero. Money was free. We were all in Silicon Valley inventing start-ups whatever, doing our thing. Do you think we’re going back to that? Like once this incident, the pandemic and everything after is over, are we going back?

Katie Martin
I mean, I can’t see it. I buy the narratives that are kicking around about inflation now being structurally higher, right? There’s a climate emergency. There’s a global defence emergency. There is all sorts of things that governments need to spend lots of money on, borrow lots of money for, all things being equal. And then there’s the whole supply chain thing after COVID and with geopolitics yada-yada.

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Robert Armstrong
And the world is getting older, right? And so when old people create demand for savings, that drives interest rates up, right?

Katie Martin
Ah, old people. Yeah.

Robert Armstrong
Old people.

Katie Martin
But I think also before we wrap up, we should note that although you were right, about 50 basis points, I was right about the timing. I said on this here very podcast back in, I think it was June 2023, the . . . Not 24. 23. That the Fed is not gonna cut rates till the third quarter this year. So what I’m saying is I’m the genius here. You’re just like a (overlapping speech) took a coin flip.

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Robert Armstrong
You’re basically Cassandra. Doomed to see the future and not be believed.

Katie Martin
I’m going to . . . 

Robert Armstrong
Do I have the right mythological figure there? I think that was Cassandra.

Katie Martin
Absolutely no idea. But I’m going to set up a hedge fund called like hunch capital where I can invest your money for two and 20. (Laughter) Based on nothing but pure hunches. Do you want in? Because like my hunch on that, your hunch on the other. I think we’re going to make good money.

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Robert Armstrong
We could. We could be rich people, Katie. But I will answer your question seriously. I think interest rates are higher now. We’re not going back to zero. I will end on that serious point.

Katie Martin
Yeah, yeah.

Robert Armstrong
Governments are spending too much. They have to spend too much. There’s loads of old people. There’s the green stuff has to be funded. Productivity might be rising possibly because of AI. We are going into a higher interest rate world. And by the way, the Fed thinks that. If you look at the history of the Fed’s view of what the long term normal interest rate is, that has been steadily ticking higher over the last year and a half or so.

Katie Martin
So rates have come down already pretty hard, but don’t get yourself carried away with thinking that we’re going back to zero, because ain’t . . . I mean.

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Robert Armstrong
No. Ain’t gonna happen. Nope.

Katie Martin
Ain’t gonna happen.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

On that bombshell, we’re going to be back in a sec with Long/Short.

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[MUSIC PLAYING]

OK, now it’s time for Long/Short, that part of the show where we go long a thing we love, short a thing we hate. Rob, I feel like you should go first before you completely lose your voice. (Laughter)

Robert Armstrong
Well, I’m going to go short wellbeing. And I say this not because my wellbeing is poor right now, but because of an article our colleague Joshua Franklin, wrote in the Financial Times yesterday that says, I’m quoting here, JPMorgan Chase has tasked one of its bankers with overseeing the company’s junior banker program, a response to renewed concerns about working conditions for young employees. And it goes on that this poor person is gonna have to make sure all these young investment bankers are happy and have work-life balance. I think investment bankers owe it to the rest of us to be miserable.

Katie Martin
Right.

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Robert Armstrong
They make a lot of money. They are the lords of the universe. They should not be happy. Their wellbeing should be awful. And that’s what you’re getting paid for. So I think JPMorgan Chase is doing the wrong thing here. And they need to appoint a banker to oversee the what’s the opposite of wellbeing. Unwell being of their junior bankers.

Katie Martin
You’re a very, very mean person and you just want everyone to be sad like you.

Robert Armstrong
No, if you want to be happy, become a journalist and make no money. If you want to be rich, become a banker and like get divorced and have your kids hate you. It’s just the normal way of life. (Laughter)

Katie Martin
Well, I am long European banking merger drama. So if you’ve missed it, the German government is, like, quite scratchy and unhappy about a potential takeover of Commerzbank by Italy’s UniCredit. It’s the talk of the town. Everyone is kind of, you know, huddled around in bars in the city asking like, how the hell did UniCredit manage to amass like a nine per cent stake in this thing? Like that doesn’t seem like a good strategic move. There’s a lot of excitement over the motives. My interest here is that this is just like the good old days of European banking mergers with like very important European bankers wearing gilets under their jackets going around in like big fast cars and, you know, chatting away on their mobile phones and being masters of the universe.

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Robert Armstrong
I just wish they would get along with it. As far as I know, in continental Europe, there’s actually more banks than people.

Katie Martin
Yeah, it’s like sheep in New Zealand. You’ve just got . . . (Laughter)

Robert Armstrong
They just need. I mean, as long as I’ve been in finance, people have been rattling on about how banking in Europe was going to consolidate. The industry was finally going to make some. They just need . . . I mean, as long as I’ve been in finance, people have been rattling on about how banking in Europe was going to consolidate. The industry was finally going to make some money and it was going be able to compete with the US. And then it’s like, you know, some Germans get mad at some Italians, it never happens and the cycle turns again.

Katie Martin
Yeah, it’s like we want consolidation, but no, no, no, no, no. Not like that.

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Robert Armstrong
Not like that.

Katie Martin
Anything but that.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

And I am here for the drama is all I’m saying.

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Robert Armstrong
Right on. I love it.

Katie Martin
OK, listeners, we are going to be back in your feed on Tuesday if Rob makes it that long, but listen up anyway, wherever you get your podcasts.

Unhedged is produced by Jake Harper and edited by Bryant Urstadt. Our executive producer is Jacob Goldstein. We had additional help from Topher Forhecz. Cheryl Brumley is the FT’s global head of audio. Special thanks to Laura Clarke, Alastair Mackie, Gretta Cohn and Natalie Sadler. FT premium subscribers can get the Unhedged newsletter for free. A 30-day free trial is available to everyone else. Just go to FT.com/unhedgedoffer. I’m Katie Martin. Thanks for listening.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

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Republicans assess potential fallout for Trump from North Carolina bombshell

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Republicans assess potential fallout for Trump from North Carolina bombshell

Republicans in North Carolina and nationally are assessing the potential fallout for former President Donald Trump from a bombshell report alleging that Lt. Gov. Mark Robinson, the party’s gubernatorial nominee, posted disturbing and inflammatory statements on a forum of a pornographic website.

CNN reported Thursday that Robinson, behind an anonymous username he allegedly used elsewhere, made the comments more than a decade ago, including supporting slavery, calling himself a “black NAZI” and recalling memories of him “peeping” on women in the shower as a 14-year-old.

ABC News has not independently verified the comments were made by Robinson, and he insisted in a video posted to X prior to the story’s publication that “those are not the words of Mark Robinson.”

But Robinson, a Donald Trump ally, already has a history of incendiary remarks about Jews, gay people and others, and elections in North Carolina, one of the nation’s marquee swing states, rest on a knife’s edge, raising questions of how much the latest news will impact his race and other Republicans on the ballot with him — including the former president.

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“I think this only heightens the level of toxicity that the Robinson campaign has, and the real question becomes, what’s the radioactive fallout at the top of the ticket along with down the ballot for Republicans here in North Carolina?” asked Michael Bitzer, the Politics Department chair at Catawba College.

“This cannot be something that the voters aren’t going to recognize and probably play more into softening the Republican support. Is it isolated only to Robinson’s campaign, or does it start to impact Trump? Does it impact other statewide executive Republicans as well? We’ll just have to wait and see, but this feels like a pretty significant event in North Carolina politics.”

MORE: Republicans step up effort to change Nebraska’s electoral vote process to benefit Trump

Robinson, who casts himself as a conservative family man and is running for North Carolina’s open governorship against Democratic state Attorney General Josh Stein, is already behind in the polls.

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PHOTO: Lt. Gov. Mark Robinson, R-NC., speaking on the first day of the Republican National Convention, July 15, 2024, in Milwaukee. (J. Scott Applewhite/AP)

PHOTO: Lt. Gov. Mark Robinson, R-NC., speaking on the first day of the Republican National Convention, July 15, 2024, in Milwaukee. (J. Scott Applewhite/AP)

While he holds statewide office and has broad name recognition, Robinson boasts a highly controversial record, including calling the Holocaust “hogwash” and homosexuality “filth,” and he drew claims of hypocrisy when he admitted this year that he had paid for his wife to get an abortion, seemingly in contrast with his stated opposition to the procedure, which he’d previously likened to “murder” and “genocide.”

North Carolina’s gubernatorial race is still considered competitive given the state’s tight partisan divide, but Republicans in the state told ABC News they had already viewed him as trailing, and that Thursday’s report won’t help.

“He’s already got a lengthy history of publishing comments like that on the internet. These are perhaps a little more graphic. In terms of does this by itself serve as a guillotine, I don’t know. But it feels like the cumulative weight is starting to add up now,” said one North Carolina GOP strategist. “It flies in the face of everything he presents of himself publicly. So, cumulatively plus the hypocrisy of this, it’s obviously hurtful to him.”

Republicans were more divided on what it means beyond Robinson’s own candidacy.

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North Carolina is a must-win state for Trump, and losing it would impose significant pressure on him to perform in other swing states.

Trump is already running ahead of Robinson — while polls show Robinson trailing, they also show a neck-and-neck race in the state between the former president and Vice President Kamala Harris. The main question now is whether the news depresses Republican turnout in a state where even a small nudge in turnout one way or the other can make decide the victor.

“[Robinson] was already toast. The question is if it hurts Trump, something the campaign is very worried about,” said Doug Heye, a veteran GOP strategist with experience working in North Carolina. “It doesn’t directly cost him voters, but his endorsed pick continues to be a big distraction and has no money to drive out the vote.”

“He’s a baby blue anchor around Trump’s chances in the Tar Heel State,” added Trump donor Dan Eberhart. “This is not good news for Trump’s campaign at all.”

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PHOTO: North Carolina Lieutenant Governor Mark Robinson speaks at the Faith and Freedom Road to Majority conference at the Washington Hilton on June 21, 2024 in Washington, D.C. (Anna Moneymaker/Getty Images, FILE)

PHOTO: North Carolina Lieutenant Governor Mark Robinson speaks at the Faith and Freedom Road to Majority conference at the Washington Hilton on June 21, 2024 in Washington, D.C. (Anna Moneymaker/Getty Images, FILE)

Democrats are already seizing on the news to try to connect Robinson to Trump, who has repeatedly praised him, even calling him at one point “Martin Luther King on steroids.”

Kamala HQ, an X page that serves as one of the Harris campaign’s rapid response tools, posted a slate of videos featuring Trump speaking positively about Robinson.

“His campaign was toast before this story, so the real impact is on all of the Republicans who have endorsed and campaigned alongside him,” said Bruce Thompson, a North Carolina Democratic fundraiser.

However, Trump has been able to navigate his own headwinds, including felony convictions in New York, questioning Harris’ race and more to remain the leader of his party and a viable presidential candidate, leading some Republicans to doubt that Robinson’s struggles will impact the presidential campaign.

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MORE: Uncommitted movement declines to endorse Harris, but encourages against Trump, third-party votes

“Doubt it impacts at all down-ballot,” said Dave Carney, a GOP strategist who chairs a pro-Trump super PAC.

“I don’t think it helps, but it won’t hurt,” added Sean Spicer, Trump’s first White House press secretary.

PHOTO: Mark Robinson, Lt. Governor of N.C. and candidate for Governor, delivers remarks prior to Republican presidential nominee former President Trump speaking at a campaign event at Harrah's Cherokee Center on Aug. 14, 2024 in Asheville, N.C. (Grant Baldwin/Getty Images)

PHOTO: Mark Robinson, Lt. Governor of N.C. and candidate for Governor, delivers remarks prior to Republican presidential nominee former President Trump speaking at a campaign event at Harrah’s Cherokee Center on Aug. 14, 2024 in Asheville, N.C. (Grant Baldwin/Getty Images)

Trump campaign spokesperson Karoline Leavitt sounded a confident note, saying in a statement that the former president’s team would “not take our eye off the ball.”

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“President Trump’s campaign is focused on winning the White House and saving this country. North Carolina is a vital part of that plan. We are confident that as voters compare the Trump record of a strong economy, low inflation, a secure border, and safe streets, with the failures of Biden-Harris, then President Trump will win the Tarheel State once again,” she said.”

Still, sources familiar with the matter said the Trump campaign was bracing for a story to come out about Robinson and is planning on putting more distance between the former president and the embattled nominee Robinson — but initially did not have plans to call on him to drop out.

“He seems to not be impacted by what’s going on down-ballot underneath him,” the North Carolina Republican strategist said of Trump. “There’s no way it helps him. But does it hurt him? I don’t know, I think that’s an open question.”

Republicans assess potential fallout for Trump from North Carolina bombshell originally appeared on abcnews.go.com

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A Global Crackdown on Freedom of Expression

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By Robin Andersen, Nolan Higdon, and Steve Macek

According to a 2022 report by Article 19, an international organization that documents and champions freedom of expression, 80 percent of the world’s population lives with less freedom of expression today than did ten years ago. The eradication of basic freedoms and rights is partly due to the pervasive normalization of censorship. Across media platforms, news outlets, schools, universities, libraries, museums, and public and private spaces, governments, powerful corporations, and influential pressure groups are suppressing freedom of expression and censoring viewpoints deemed to be unpopular or dangerous. Unfortunately, physical assaults, legal restrictions, and retaliation against journalists, students, and faculty alike have become all too common, resulting in the suppression of dissenting voices and, more broadly, the muffling and disappearance of critical information, controversial topics, and alternative narratives from public discourse.

We collaborated with an accomplished group of international scholars and journalists to document this disturbing trend in Censorship, Digital Media and the Global Crackdown on Freedom of Expression (Peter Lang 2024). Our collective work analyzed contemporary and historical methods of censorship and anti-democratic impulses that threaten civil society, human rights, and freedoms of information and expression around the world today. The collection explains how a rising tide of political tyranny coupled with the expansion of corporate power is stifling dissent, online expression, news reporting, political debate, and academic freedom from the United States and Europe to the Global South.

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The Assault on Press Freedom

Our volume reveals an epidemic of censorship and attacks on journalists and free speech around the globe. Although completed prior to the horrifying atrocities of October 7, 2023, in Israel, the text provides context for understanding that Israeli violence against Palestinians since October 7, including the murder of journalists, has been decades in the making. This strategy initially took hold with the assassination of the veteran Al Jazeera reporter Shireen Abu Akleh, a Palestinian-American, as she documented Israel’s occupation of Jenin. The world has now witnessed the full flowering of the Israeli-state aggression against Palestinians that led to her murder. To date, Israel has killed more than 100 media workers in Gaza, raising the concern and outrage of numerous press freedom organizations and seventy UN member states that have now called for international investigations into each one of the murders. As the International Federation of Journalists reported, “Killing journalists is a war crime that undermines the most basic human rights.”

Journalists around the globe are repeatedly targeted because their profession, which is protected constitutionally in many nations, exists to draw attention to abuses of power. Thus, it is no surprise that the rise in global censorship has entailed the targeting of journalists with violence, imprisonment, and harassment. In Russia, journalists are jailed and die in custody, as they do in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, China, and Hong Kong. In Mexico, there are “silenced zones,” controlled by a deadly collaboration between drug gangs and government corruption, where journalists are routinely killed. In 2022, Mexico was the most dangerous country for journalists outside of a war zone.

The assault on press freedom has also been normalized in self-proclaimed democracies such as the United Kingdom, where WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange has been imprisoned for more than five years, and in the United States, which has targeted Assange with espionage charges simply for promoting freedom of information. Although US presidents and other national figures often refer to the United States as “the leader of the free world,” the United States now ranks 55th in the world on the Reporters without Borders 2024 World Press Freedom Index.

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Repression of Artists and Academics

News outlets and their workers are not the only targets of the current wave of repression. Hollywood has long been shaped—and censored—by government and corporate power. For example, our book includes a chapter on the Pentagon’s long-standing influence on Hollywood, which has resulted in the film industry abandoning production of hundreds of films deemed unacceptable by the military.

In addition to media, educators and academics are increasingly subject to repressive measures that muzzle freedom of information and expression. Scholars and institutions of higher education sometimes produce research that challenges the myths and propaganda perpetuated by those in power. And even when they don’t, autonomy from micromanagement by government authorities and private funders is a prerequisite for the integrity of scholarly research and teaching, which tends to make elites exceedingly nervous. This is why universities and academic freedom are increasingly under siege by autocratic regimes and right-wing activists from Hungary to Brazil and from India to Florida.

Alarmingly, the latest Academic Freedom Index found that more than 45 percent of the world’s population now lives in countries with an almost complete lack of academic freedom (more than at any time since the 1970s). In Brazil, the government of right-wing president Jair Bolsonaro attempted to ban education about gender and sexuality,  slashed budgets for the country’s universities, and threatened to defund the disciplines of philosophy and sociology. In 2018, Hungary’s conservative Fidesz government shut down graduate programs in gender studies, forced the country’s most prestigious university, the Central European University, to relocate to Austria, and sparked months of protests at the University of Theater and Film Arts in Budapest by making unpopular changes to the school’s board of trustees. Something similar happened in Turkey, where, since 2016, the ruling regime has suspended thousands of professors and administrators from their university posts for alleged ties to the outlawed Gülen movement and shut down upwards of 3,000 schools and universities. Meanwhile, in the United States, several Republican-controlled state legislatures have enacted draconian laws prohibiting or severely limiting teaching about race, sexuality, and gender in college classrooms. Under the influence of its arch-conservative governor, Ron DeSantis, Florida eliminated sociology as a core general education course at all of its public universities.

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Big Tech Censorship

Censorship is nothing new, but the pervasive influence of the internet and the development of so-called artificial intelligence (AI) have created new, more nefarious opportunities to crack down on freedoms around the globe. So-called smart platforms and tools have created new forms of Big Tech control and content moderation, such as shadowbanning and algorithmic bias. Regimes have set up a form of quid pro quo with tech companies, demanding certain concessions such as removing unfavorable content in exchange for government access to otherwise private information about tech platforms’ users. For example, in the United States, tech companies depend on large government contracts and, as a result, often work with government officials directly and indirectly to censor content. Nor do they block only false or misleading content. Social media platforms have also been found to censor perfectly valid scientific speculation about the possible origin of COVID-19 and instances of obvious political satire.

These restrictive practices are at odds with Big Tech PR campaigns that trumpet the platforms’ capacity to empower users. Despite this hype, critical examination reveals that privately controlled platforms seldom function as spaces where genuine freedom of information and intellectual exchange flourish. In reality, Big Tech works with numerous national regimes to extend existing forms of control over citizens’ behaviors and expression into the digital realm. People are not ignorant of these abuses and have taken action to promote freedom across the globe. However, they have largely been met by more censorship. For example, as social media users took to TikTok to challenge US and Israeli messaging on Gaza, the US government took steps to ban the platform. Relatedly, Israel raided Al Jazeeras office in East Jerusalem, confiscated its equipment, shuttered its office, and closed down its website.

Our book also details the complex history and structures of censorship in Myanmar, Uganda, and the Philippines, and popular resistance to this oppression. To this catalog of examples, we can add India’s periodic internet shutdowns aimed at stifling protests by farmers, the blocking of websites in Egypt, and the right-wing strongman Jair Bolsonaro’s persecution of journalists in Brazil. Each of these cases is best understood as a direct result of a rise in faux populist, right-wing authoritarian politicians and political movements, whose popularity has been fostered by reactionary responses to decades of neo-liberal rule.

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What Is to Be Done? 

Censorship is being driven not only by governments but also by an array of political and corporate actors across the ideological spectrum, from right-wing autocrats and MAGA activists to Big Tech oligarchs and self-professed liberals. Indeed, when it comes to censorship, a focus on any one country’s ideology, set of practices, or justifications for restricting expression risks missing the forest for the trees. The global community is best served when we collectively reject all attempts to suppress basic freedoms, regardless of where they emerge or how they are implemented.

To counter increasing restrictions on public discourse and the muzzling of activists, journalists, artists, and scholars, we need global agreements that protect press freedom, the right to protest, and accountability for attacks on journalists. Protection of freedom of expression and the press should be a central plank of US foreign policy. We need aggressive antitrust enforcement to break up giant media companies that today wield the power to unilaterally control what the public sees, hears, and reads. We also need to create awareness and public knowledge to help pass legislation, such as the PRESS Act, that will guarantee journalists’ right to protect their sources’ confidentiality and prevent authorities from collecting information about their activities from third parties like phone companies and internet service providers.

Moreover, widespread surveillance by social media platforms and search engines, supposedly necessary to improve efficiency and convenience, ought to be abandoned. All of us should have the right to control any non-newsworthy personal data that websites and apps have gathered about us and to ask that such data be deleted, a right that Californians will enjoy starting in 2026.

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In addition, we should all support the efforts of organizations such as the American Association of University Professors, Article 19, and many others to fight back against encroachments on academic and intellectual freedom.

Supporters of free expression should also vigilantly oppose the ideologically motivated content moderation schemes Big Tech companies so often impose on their users.

Rather than trusting Big Tech to curate our news feeds, or putting faith in laws that would attempt to criminalize misinformation, we need greater investment in media literacy education, including education about the central importance of expressive rights and vigorous, open debate to a functioning democracy. The era of the internet and AI demonstrates the urgent need for education and fundamental knowledge in critical media literacy to ensure that everyone has the necessary skills to act as digital citizens, capable of understanding and evaluating the media we consume.

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How the EU can reset foreign policy for the western Balkans

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Steven Everts makes numerous important and laudable points on the need for the EU to seriously recalibrate both its capacities and posture in foreign policy (Opinion, September 12).

It’s worth adding that in a foreign policy area on the bloc’s very borders, the EU has led the west into a dead end of failure, in which official pronouncements have never been more at variance with the on-the-ground reality.

The western Balkans is the only region in which the US consistently defers to a democratic partner’s leadership — that of the EU.

Nowhere else does the west, if united, wield greater leverage or have a wider array of policy instruments. Yet for far too long, the EU has addressed the region almost solely through its enlargement process, neglecting its foreign policy commitments — including a deterrent force in Bosnia and Herzegovina mandated by the Dayton Peace Agreement and authorised under Chapter 7 by the UN Security Council.

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This force remains well below the brigade-strength required to pose a credible deterrent to threats to the peace and territorial integrity. In addition, the EU states it will support local authorities, who have primary responsibility to maintain a secure environment — defying the reason the mandate exists to begin with: namely to thwart attempts by local authorities to upend the peace.

The desire to maintain the fiction that the Belgrade-Pristina Dialogue is still alive compels the EU into all sorts

of contortions which in effect reward Serbia, despite allegations of Serbian involvement in recent violence, and periodic (and ongoing) threats of invasion. By straying from its original declared purpose to achieve mutual recognition between Serbia and Kosovo, as well as serving as a shield for Serbia’s authoritarian president, Aleksandar Vučić, the dialogue serves as a diversion from genuine problem- solving.

Incoming EU foreign policy chief Kaja Kallas has demonstrated leadership and vision for Europe and the wider west as Estonia’s prime minister, particularly with regard to the response to Russia’s war of aggression against Ukraine.

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One hopes she will undertake the overdue task of making the policies of the EU and the wider west more consistent with the values of democracy and human dignity we proclaim to hold dear. She can begin by leading the west to a restoration of credible deterrence in the Balkans, and start to counter the backsliding of democracy long visible there.

Kurt Bassuener
Co-Founder and Senior Associate, Democratization Policy Council, Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina

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An Amazing Site With Rich History

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man

It’s early summer in Moldova, and the cherries are already ripe. Fellow journalist Marian Männi and I pick and pop them into our mouths as we follow our chosen tour guide up a hill. We are exploring Old Orhei, a famous Moldovan landmark and archaeological site. It consists of three villages: Trebujeni to the north, Butuceni to the west and Morovaia to the east. The area is built on a green field, and the Răut River runs through it.

Following the guide’s lead, we climb a hill to find one of many cave monasteries. This one is rather hidden, so most tourists miss it entirely. 

My guide showcases a cave monastery above the Răut River, where tourists rarely find their way. Author’s photo.

A picture from the inside of the cave looking out. Author’s photo.

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The surrounding area is an unusual sight. The sloping bank of the Răut River emerges from a perfectly flat field, looking almost man-made. However, it is a natural reminder of how landscapes evolve. You can find perfect seashells on the limestone bank in a country with no coastline, much like on a sandy beach. Millions of years ago, the Răut River was part of the ancient Sarmatian Sea, just like the lands of today’s Moldova.

Scenic views of Old Orhei. One can barely see the river under the hill. Author’s photo.

My guide, Professor Sergiu Musteață, knows this site incredibly well. He is a renowned historian from Moldova and a professor at the Faculty of Philology and History at “Ion Creangă” State Pedagogical University. He has worked to educate locals about the history of Old Orhei and how to develop tourism businesses. He has also guided them in creating guesthouses and writing proposals for funding to build flushing toilets in their homes.

Old Orhei has been one of the main subjects of his research since 1996. “I know everyone in Orheiul Vechi [the Romanian version of the name]!” he laughs. He also knows all of the approximately 300 caves in the area and has personally researched many of them.

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Professor Sergiu Musteață says that people working in Moldovan tourism need to understand that the basis of it is history and heritage. Author’s photo.

A scenic journey through unknown sites

Musteață leads us along a hidden path lined with cherry trees from an old student’s base. Researchers have been excavating this area for decades, as the unique landscape reveals layers of settlements dating back to prehistoric times.

“When we come here with students, we usually clean the neighborhood and cut the grass first,” Musteață says, pushing branches away from the path. If only tourists knew about this shortcut hidden in nature.

Professor Musteață peers through a rustic gate. Author’s photo.

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“We have organized 20 years of summer camps for the locals during the excavations, including summer schools for local kids. Lots of students, both locals and internationals, participated!” he states emphatically.

Despite many efforts, only a few locals have made a name for themselves in the tourism sector. “I don’t know why. There is not so much interest. It should be the most prominent place among tourists,” Musteață comments.

Unlike other visitors, we walk past the Peștera cave monastery, the main tourist attraction of Old Orhei. The current underground tunnels date back to 1820. However, the caves in these limestone hills have existed since the 14th century. Orthodox monks found solitude and a place for spiritual retreat in this isolation.

“There is another cave monastery here. Locals know about it, but only a few tourists will visit it,” says Musteață. This is where we are heading.

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We walk past the Peștera cave monastery and head off-road to find another lesser-known monastery. Author’s photo.

We walk on the bank, passing through the Church of Ascension of St. Mary. The view of the valley and fields is breathtaking. Turning left, the professor leads us onto an almost unrecognizable road downhill from the bank. Our slippers aren’t ideal footwear for this leg of the journey, but nevertheless, we climb down the limestone bank to a land of grazing cows.

Musteață guides us onto a new path, leading down the limestone bank. Author’s photo.

After walking, we climb again to another obscure cave monastery of Old Orhei, built above the Răut’s waters. There isn’t a single soul up here now, but historically, monks isolated themselves in this cave. As a result, the monastery is covered in signs of human habitation.

The church’s facade is engraved with Slavonian writing: “This church was built by the slave of Bosie, pircalab (Chief Magistrate) of Orhei, together with his wife and his children, to cherish God, to forgive his sins.”

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The professor shows us around. We see where the monks would sleep and where they built their fireplace. All the caves are in remarkably good shape, with few signs of dripping rocks.

We view the monastery’s exterior, which has endured for centuries. Author’s photo.

This structure often goes unexplored by tourists. “It’s a bit too far and difficult to access. That’s why people don’t know much about it and wouldn’t end up here,” Musteață explains.

Musteață teaches us about the monastery. Author’s photo.

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On the whole, Old Orhei is a fascinating, history site. And its antiquity is richer than one might expect.

Mankind has loved this region since ancient times

The surroundings have been populated since the Paleolithic era due to good location — the river protects Old Orhei from three sides. The land is suitable for agriculture and flowing water is nearby.

Archaeological findings suggest that the Getians built some fortresses and settlements in this region during the 4th to 3rd centuries BCE, taking advantage of the natural fortifications provided by the rocky outcroppings and riverbanks.

In the 14th century CE, Old Orhei became part of the medieval state of Moldova (Țara Moldovei) after the collapse of the Golden Horde, a Mongol-Tatar state that controlled this territory as well.

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After the Tatar period in the 12th to 14th centuries, an Orthodox Christian community developed during medieval times. Political stability and the protective embrace of nature made Old Orhei an important center. Moldovan hero and ruler Stephen the Great, whose rule lasted from 1457 to 1504, appointed his uncle, Peter III Aaron, to rule there. The area was fortified with strong defensive walls and towers.

Life in Old Orhei slowly faded in the 17th century. The administration moved to neighboring New Orhei, and gradually, the monastic community began to disappear. The last monks are believed to have left Old Orhei at the beginning of the 19th century. By this time, many monastic communities in the region faced significant challenges due to political changes, invasions and pressures from the expanding Ottoman Empire. The decline in monastic life at Old Orhei was part of a broader trend affecting many religious sites in the region.

At the beginning of the 20th century, a new Virgin Mary Church was built atop the bank near a cave monastery to revitalize the area’s spiritual significance. It serves as a symbol of Old Orhei’s continued religious heritage, even after the original monastic community dispersed.

Though the region’s religiosity remains, Old Orhei’s authenticity, unfortunately, has recently declined.

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The loss of authenticity in a historic land

Many historical sites in Old Orhei face the problem of random preservation efforts, which are not concerned with preserving the site’s authentic look.

In 2023, the road from Butuceni village in the Cultural-Natural Reserve was asphalted, which led to an investigation by the Ministry of Culture. It ruined the village’s authenticity but gave locals more logistical freedom.

Climbing on the bank, we notice a brand-new red-roofed dwelling that, from a logical viewpoint, should not have been built in the reserve. But there it is, like the newly constructed path to the Peștera cave monastery and the asphalted road in Butuceni village.

This modern tampering is one thing preventing Moldova from having its first United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) World Heritage Site.

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“There is too much industrialization in a place where authenticity is worshiped,” Musteață laments. The Old Orhei Reserve has been on the UNESCO tentative list for years but is not moving forward any time soon. “I don’t think there is much hope at the moment,” Musteață admits honestly.

The situation saddens him. He and other researchers have worked for years to put this site on the world map as a part of humanity’s historical cradle, to no avail.

“The landscape and the density of settlements since prehistory is special. You can see the changes in this part of the world, moving from East to West. The Golden Horde, the Islamic period, Christians — there is a huge variety of artifacts describing how people lived in this area,” Musteață explains.

Life has moved on from this relic. The Orthodox Church still holds significant power in the small country of Moldova, but only traces of the glory the church once had in Old Orhei remain. In the 1940s, the Soviet Union started excavations in the region, which also disrupted the old sites; they built a new road through the Golden Horde citadel and cut it in half.

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“A historic road should go around the citadel. It’s completely doable,” Musteață says.

The professor feels that many of Moldova’s stories remain untold, even that of such a landmark as Old Orhei. “It is frustrating. We need to tell our story!” Musteață suggests.

He thinks the country itself should put Orhei at the top of the list of tourist destinations in Moldova. After all, it’s the most important tourist site in the country. “It should be declared a state priority, a national strategy,” he says. “People working in this field in Moldova need to understand that the basis of tourism is history and heritage.”

That is another reason why Moldova’s Old Orhei is not on the UNESCO list. “Our country overall is underrepresented,” Musteață believes.

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According to UNESCO, the organization is not in a position to comment on what is missing for Old Orhei to receive its World Heritage Site title. Moldova first proposed the area as a UNESCO World Heritage Site in 2008 but withdrew its nomination the following year.

In September 2015, Moldova submitted a new version of the nomination dossier as “Orheiul Vechi Archaeological Landscape,” a cultural site. Following the evaluation process and a recommendation by the International Council on Monuments and Sites, Moldova withdrew the nomination again.

Luckily, Moldova appears on the UNESCO list as part of a group of countries with the Struve Geodetic Arc, a chain of survey triangulations spanning ten countries and over 2,820 kilometers. This chain reaches from the world’s northernmost city — Hammerfest, Norway — to the Black Sea. The listed site includes 34 points across all ten countries, one of which is in Moldova. The country is eager to earn its very own World Heritage Site title, even if it isn’t Old Orhei.

[Lee Thompson-Kolar edited this piece.]

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The views expressed in this article are the author’s own and do not necessarily reflect Fair Observer’s editorial policy.

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